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	<title>Comments on: Automated Testing 2: The Test Pyramid</title>
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	<link>http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/automated-testing-2-the-test-pyramid/</link>
	<description>Ben Hutchison's contribution to our Internet mind</description>
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		<title>By: Gerard Meszaros</title>
		<link>http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/automated-testing-2-the-test-pyramid/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerard Meszaros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/?p=38#comment-258</guid>
		<description>Brittle tests are not a sign of a brittle code base. They are a symptom of badly written tests. If you are spending 10 times as much effort changing breaking tests then your tests are too closely coupled to the production code. You shouldn&#039;t have to make the same change in more than a few tests or test utility methods.

You can use test refactorings to get from brittle tests to robust tests. I describe how to do this (and how to know that you should do it) on my web site http://xunitpatterns.com and my book. (xUnit Test Patterns - Refactoring Test Code)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brittle tests are not a sign of a brittle code base. They are a symptom of badly written tests. If you are spending 10 times as much effort changing breaking tests then your tests are too closely coupled to the production code. You shouldn&#8217;t have to make the same change in more than a few tests or test utility methods.</p>
<p>You can use test refactorings to get from brittle tests to robust tests. I describe how to do this (and how to know that you should do it) on my web site <a href="http://xunitpatterns.com" rel="nofollow">http://xunitpatterns.com</a> and my book. (xUnit Test Patterns &#8211; Refactoring Test Code)</p>
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		<title>By: benhutchison</title>
		<link>http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/automated-testing-2-the-test-pyramid/#comment-117</link>
		<dc:creator>benhutchison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/?p=38#comment-117</guid>
		<description>You make a good point that has clarified my thinking.

Closer to what I really meant is: &quot;Tests are intentionally brittle code. Adding them to a codebase will increase the average brittleness of the codebase as a whole (ie app + test) &quot;

I&#039;ll update the post sometime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a good point that has clarified my thinking.</p>
<p>Closer to what I really meant is: &#8220;Tests are intentionally brittle code. Adding them to a codebase will increase the average brittleness of the codebase as a whole (ie app + test) &#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll update the post sometime.</p>
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		<title>By: hiremaga</title>
		<link>http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/automated-testing-2-the-test-pyramid/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>hiremaga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/?p=38#comment-116</guid>
		<description>I suppose I did what I said I&#039;d try to avoid :)

I was drawing a comparison with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

I meant that the tests don&#039;t make a codebase brittle; they may allow its sensation but its reality is independent of the presence of tests.

I do agree that tests can themselves be brittle and I really like the 4 qualities you explored in your last post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose I did what I said I&#8217;d try to avoid <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I was drawing a comparison with this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest</a></p>
<p>I meant that the tests don&#8217;t make a codebase brittle; they may allow its sensation but its reality is independent of the presence of tests.</p>
<p>I do agree that tests can themselves be brittle and I really like the 4 qualities you explored in your last post.</p>
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		<title>By: benhutchison</title>
		<link>http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/automated-testing-2-the-test-pyramid/#comment-115</link>
		<dc:creator>benhutchison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/?p=38#comment-115</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s certainly provocative, but also somewhat misguided IMHO but I’ll try to avoid digressing into a philosophical discussion about trees falling in forests.&quot;

Sorry, Abhi, you lost me with this bit??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s certainly provocative, but also somewhat misguided IMHO but I’ll try to avoid digressing into a philosophical discussion about trees falling in forests.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry, Abhi, you lost me with this bit??</p>
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		<title>By: hiremaga</title>
		<link>http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/automated-testing-2-the-test-pyramid/#comment-114</link>
		<dc:creator>hiremaga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/?p=38#comment-114</guid>
		<description>&quot;Automated Tests Make Brittle Codebases&quot;

It&#039;s certainly provocative, but also somewhat misguided IMHO but I&#039;ll try to avoid digressing into a philosophical discussion about trees falling in forests.

The experience you describe says more about the quality of the tests themselves rather than the affect their mere presence has on a software system. Perhaps one lesson here is that poorly written automated tests can be more brittle than well written ones.

If unit tests are well written they should be focused and orthogonal only one should ever fail at a time. 

If functional tests are well written, in addition to other attributes, they should be agnostic of implementation specifics meaning none will fail due to a mere refactor. 

If many well written functional tests fail it might be a sign you&#039;re trying to refactor a bicycle into a Ferrari (analogy plagiarised from http://www.eaves.org/jon/work/agile.shtml)

Now there&#039;s a series of provocative statements :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Automated Tests Make Brittle Codebases&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s certainly provocative, but also somewhat misguided IMHO but I&#8217;ll try to avoid digressing into a philosophical discussion about trees falling in forests.</p>
<p>The experience you describe says more about the quality of the tests themselves rather than the affect their mere presence has on a software system. Perhaps one lesson here is that poorly written automated tests can be more brittle than well written ones.</p>
<p>If unit tests are well written they should be focused and orthogonal only one should ever fail at a time. </p>
<p>If functional tests are well written, in addition to other attributes, they should be agnostic of implementation specifics meaning none will fail due to a mere refactor. </p>
<p>If many well written functional tests fail it might be a sign you&#8217;re trying to refactor a bicycle into a Ferrari (analogy plagiarised from <a href="http://www.eaves.org/jon/work/agile.shtml)" rel="nofollow">http://www.eaves.org/jon/work/agile.shtml)</a></p>
<p>Now there&#8217;s a series of provocative statements <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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